So when did wearing pajama's become a public fashion statement? I have been shaking my head for years at the advance of the fashion idea that there is no private. I'm used to the fact that young men wear pants that hang an inch below where the skidding started. I've never yelled out 'pull your frigging pants up' even once even though I've thought it thousands of times. What's kind of weird is that the same kids who think I'm too fat wear pants with the same waist size that I have. I sometimes see them eyeing my pants with ... avarice.
But, I'll make peace with my desire to stage a boxer rebellion if people will give up on wearing pajama's in public. In hotels you wouldn't know how common it is to see entire families in the restaurant in their jammies. I sit there thinking about all those damn classes I teach to people with disabilities about boundaries. BOUNDARIES.
However, here's what happened, pay attention there will be a quiz:
We were out for lunch and a family came in, they had two teen aged girls both were wearing pajama bottoms. The older girl wore a tee shirt top. The younger girl was in a wheelchair and was wearing something much more sheer. I'm not good with words for female clothing, it kind of looked like a slip but it wasn't. I figure I should go to a crash course at Victoria Secret so I can better describe what I see. And by the way, we went by one of those stores yesterday and I'm not sure exactly what secret Victoria is keeping.
Anyways, the young woman with a disability was very busty and I thought the top was wildly inappropriate and noticed that she was really noticed by people around her. A couple teen boys were making fun of her with their words but couldn't take their eyes off her breasts. At one point I thought she was trying to cover herself with her arms, like she was embarrassed to be out like she was. Her parents and sister simply didn't notice.
I felt that she was really, really vulnerable. I felt like she was being made vulnerable. I didn't think that she had made the choice to wear what she was wearing. I'm going to be giving a lecture about abuse prevention ... I felt like I had a duty to speak up.
But I just didn't think that I could without making myself seem like a pervert. I didn't want further incident to embarrass her even more.
A vote...
a) I would speak up ... (if you vote this, tell what you'd say ...)
b) I would not speak up ... (if not, why not ...)
I'd have spoken up. Mostly because I don't give a rat's butt what people think about me. Not only was the young woman uncomfortable, there is the issue of attracting sexual predators.
ReplyDeleteSpeaking up for those who can't/won't speak up for themselves is never a bad thing.
From time to time, I come across a situation where I feel that something seriously inappropriate is happening to a person with a disability. I am the sort of person who usually speaks up for people with disabilities, but there are times when I don't speak up. I don't speak up when it might cause even more embarassment to the person who has been inappropriately treated. I don't speak up when I think that it is unlikely that the persons around the victim will amend their behaviour and that they may victimize the person with a disability even more, because of what I had said to them.
ReplyDeleteI think that the young woman you saw last night would qualify on both counts. I would have gritted my teeth and said nothing.
If I had any brochures for my lecture, I might have handed one to the young victim.
The Wheeliecrone has spoken.
I wouldn't speak up. I might have even had to leave because I would have felt so uncomfortable. I wouldn't speak up in this situation because I avoid confrontation with a passion. My upbringing has trained me not to speak out or make a fuss for fear of attracting attention to myself. I will write and complain if I feel strongly enough but NEVER cause a scene at the time. However I do not necessarily think that that is the right course of action. Wheeliecrone's idea of a brochure or note is a good one.
ReplyDeleteLet's hope that these people acted out of ignorance and not neglect. Although the end result was the same, I think she has a better chance of good loving care with ignorant parents than neglectful ones in my opinion.
As a female wheelchair user, I think I would feel more comfortable speaking up than if I were male--I am similarly situated to her. But I've been cursed out at people for speaking up before too--when one college girl my age was beating her dog. But she stopped.
ReplyDeleteDespite my Frida blog picture, I am a very modest dresser--while I like to wear interesting clothing, I don't wear revealing clothing. I believe that people *should* be able to wear whatever they like and not be harassed for it. Nevertheless, they are. So it's a two-part problem; part of the solution is people teaching others to leave girls and women alone, not just teaching people it's safest to avoid attention. Otherwise young men fall into the "but she was wearing a short skirt" excuse, while nothing is an excuse.
In this situation, though, I think her parents were being controlling by not thinking of her needs. If you had spoken up--you are not the one being wrong shouldn't be accused of that--you'd be pointing out what others are doing and how that affects her. Giving the parents a note might help prevent her from being verbally singled out and feeling more embarrassed.
I'm not prudish, but I'd never let my daughter in a hotel restaurant in her PJs. If we need to eat before getting completely ready, we can temporarily put on last night's clothes.
I guess I think her parents were being controlling because I remembering my childhood disability remember my parents not allowing me to do certain things or help me do them because it wasn't convenient yet--it's not convenient to change a wheelchair user's clothes twice. And she probably didn't have that option herself to do what she wanted, even if she asked. It's sometimes difficult after a late arrival to get everyone through the bathroom routines and changed before breakfast closes--but still...
ReplyDeleteI would vote for not speak up, mostly for the reasons you mentioned, that you would look like a real perv and shame her further. If you were a straight woman, maybe you could pull it off.
ReplyDeleteIf she looked embarrassed to you, then I'm sure she was. I will say that wearing a too-revealing outfit and then feeling regret because of the bad behavior of boys is kind of a rite of passage for a lot of teenage girls. When I was a teenager, it only had to happen to me once. I don't think that a teen with a disability is less capable of dealing with this than another teen--as long as she can choose her wardrobe. I don't know what it was that made you think she didn't pick her outfit and I'm curious about that. It sounds like the family said, "Hey, let's have a PJ day!" and it was a BAD idea. Maybe the parents don't realize that their little girl is growing up and shouldn't be wearing a cami in public. But maybe when they went home later the girl told them that she was embarrassed and doesn't want to wear that kind of thing. Maybe one of the parents realized at the time but was just brazening it out. I hope that's the case.
I do understand why abuse prevention is such an emergency, but I also think some people (not Dave) are always looking at families of a child with a disability and thinking that they're doing a bad job raising their kid. It's like having a kid with a disability means you have to wear a neon sign and everyone is judging. One moment of poor judgement, one lapse in parenting skills, and everyone is saying"Tssk tssk, she's doing it wrong." I don't have kids so this is not a personal issue for me; this is just what I observe. So hopefully this was just a bad moment for PJ Family and they are not necessarily the kind of parents who put their daughters at risk.
If there was someone who needed to be talked to in this situation, I would definitely vote for the teenage boys who were making rude remarks. Put the blame where it belongs instead of shaming the victim.
i wouldnt have spoken up. i'd be too humiliated both on my own behalf (what if i were yelled at??) and on hers (oh dear, she looks embarassed enough, and i dont want to cause her more pain).
ReplyDeleteon the other hand, i have been out in public a few times in pajamas myself. a couple of times to the emergency room, and once being released from the hospital. i think *those* occasions are allowable.
If I had a sweater or jacket on, I would have spoken directly to the girl, offered my jacket, and said, "Would you like my jacket?"
ReplyDeleteIf her parents had then spoken unkindly to me, well then, I probably would have spoke unkindly back :)
Fashion over function? I wouldn't have said anything as what I think is appropriate, for someone else is fashionable. I can remember a time when I didn't wear a heavy enough coat for the weather and would wear impossible shoes! If you feel that the young lady was dressed too "sexy", that gets into a whole different conversation as to why she is made vulnerable by her apparel.
ReplyDeleteI think I have to agree with Ivanova. Obviously I wasn't there, but I too am wondering what made you think this young woman didn't choose her own clothes. It sounds as if she and her sister were close in age, and she was more than likely wearing what most young female teens are wearing these days (I'll do my best to reserve judgment). I wouldn't be surprised if she thought it wouldn't be a big deal to head out in pjs and realized a little too late that it would attract unwanted attention.
ReplyDeleteOf course, I think teenagers-esp. girls, tend to have very ambivalent feeling about attention anyway. There's the part that wants to be noticed, but then when people do notice (particularly in such a lewd way), it's uncomfortable. And, as Ivanova pointed out, it's a pretty normal experience.
And also agreed that that boys could have used a bit of counseling to be more respectful in their behavior.
As for the parents, well...All I can say is my parents wouldn't have let me out of the house in pajamas, let alone anything revealing. I remember arguing for an age with my mother over my wish to wear a pear of ripped pants. She absolutely forbade me to leave the house. She won.
This post troubles me... not sure if I can write all my thoughts but will give it a go. I would not speak up. I'm not sure that you can know all of the things your post covered.
ReplyDeleteThat the young woman in question was wearing a cami is certain. That she had eye catching breasts is certain. But the rest... assumptions, no? The teen boys may have been just ogling, as teen boys do when presented with breasts. Unless you heard the words, you don't know that the words were derogatory. She may/may not have been covering up when she realized the attention that she was getting. Perhaps she was just jiggling the girlz around getting straps comfy. Perhaps not. Her parents and sister didn't notice. But perhaps (and this is from my experience) it was a battle they had chosen not to fight. Cleavage is in people, get used to it. Perhaps it had been a battle already this morning, nothing to do with disability but just that time honoured father daughter thing "No daughter of mine is going to leave this house wearing....".
Assuming this young woman is old enough to make her own decisions (and if she's got boobs then I'm guessing so), then it is a decision that she can make.
But really... if Gwen Stefani came in dressed in a pocket hanky and a smile, would you tell her parents?
Oh, and meant to add....
ReplyDeleteI'm all over this in our house right now. My lovely 14 y.o is a lush B, almost C cup, much to my barely-A-cup chagrin. She looks fabulous in tank tops and camis, and has a number of items in her closet purchased from high fashion stores that are exactly what every other 14 y.o. is wearing. Does it make me a little uncomfortable? Sure. Does it make her blend in with all the other high school girls? Yepper. Do I advise her (and her teacher, too, hehehe) on what not to wear? Of course. But honestly, she, and all women have a right to wear anything they want. The world does NOT have a right to judge her or use the "but she was wearing" excuse previously mentioned.
I don't get it.
I might have dropped the family a note on the way out.
ReplyDeleteI'm just getting the idea that Dave may not be saying all, in his modesty, though I could be wrong, that it wasn't just revealing. In the words of Monty Python, that it was a bit nipply, I mean nippy, out that day. I guess I'm seeing something more along the line of sheer or satiny rather than just revealing cleavage; maybe not.
ReplyDeleteI guess the way I'm seeing it, Dave didn't say anything, but it wasn't wrong for him to have initial thoughts or concerns and ask about it. As someone who has been sexually abused three times in medical contexts, I do appreciate him being thoughtful about such issues. I'm not saying that the parents were sexually abusive at all--only that we're more vulnerable to abuse.
I wasn't one who was given a choice about what I wore, even on individual days, until some time in high school. It happens. Sometimes I was not allowed to get dressed for the day. I was yelled at by the homecare PTs for not being out of bed--my mother wanted me there in bed. (As a sick person as an adult, I stay in the middle of things in the living room.) It was obvious to others how much control my parents put on me. It does happen. To those of us who give our children autonomy in this regard, it's difficult to imagine doing that.
I find myself thinking that the more disabled the child, the less likely she is to be allowed to make choices; Wheelie Catholic had an interesting post recently on whether "learned helplessness" of PWDs is actually abuse/conflict avoidance.
One thing that concerns me: why are we questioning Dave's perceptions?
ReplyDeleteWhy when abuse comes up, do we tend to question the person who tells? This prevents people from coming forward when something happens, fear of being called crazy. It's what kept me from telling.
FridaWrites is right on all counts. Dave, again my apologies on making assumptions about your assumptions.
ReplyDeleteI guess I can't say what exactly bothers me, tho. I want to say that this young woman should be able to dress as she wants. I know there are compelling reasons why dressing in a certain way can be risky for the wearer, and this is already an individual at risk. It's not right, but it is reality. My inside voice is just saying, "if you've got it, flaunt it". Why can't she?
Really, it just seems to me like the girls came down in their pajamas to have breakfast. It's a fairly normal teen thing, and since it was both of them it may just be an ok thing in their family.
ReplyDeleteBeing only three years out of teen-hood myself, I would guess that if she was uncomfortable, it may be because she simply hadn't realized that what felt comfy and fine in the room w/family would feel pretty revealing in public. I had this happen a number of times a few years back when I was still learning to cross reference what looked good on me with what was appropriate and what felt comfortable.
Who I *would* be having a quiet (so as not to further embarrass the teen) but intense word with would be those teenage boys. Something along the lines of how it is *not* all right to treat girls and women.
I'm writing this before I read the other responses in case they make me feel badly about the fact that I would not have spoken up.
ReplyDeleteSpeaking up on this subject is hard to do even with people you have a relationship with. I have done it then, but carefully and with a lot of forethought. I couldn't plunge into a situation like this with strangers. It would feel like crossing a huge boundary, and I don't think it would accomplish what I wanted it to--unless I had some wonderful way to say, but which doesn't come to mind now. Aha, "A bit nippy, isn't it?" just came to mind! :)
I'd agree, wearing pyjamas in public is just *off*, and rather confusing to anyone concerned with boundaries.
ReplyDeleteYour holding back may not be a delicacy that girl will ever appreciate, but the indelicacy of a middle-aged man's trespassing in that way is something she probably shouldn't have to appreciate. And for many teenagers, anything adults do which acknowledges their sexual selves is trespass.
A difficulty I see in interpreting that sort of situation is this: there's a whole section of girlish/young womanly society in which wearing (or, to my middle-aged eye, not wearing) clothes which will then embarrass one is practically required. The hitching and jiggling and pulling at hems, and never being quite at ease in their clothing, is part of the dance of attraction.
It's a lousy part, and in that respect I'm grateful for my adolescent obliviousness. (My mother used to quote, "on doit souffrir pour etre belle", and I think I deduced that belle wasn't worth being.) But it makes it hard to distinguish true, painful discomfort from the sort of discomfort which repeats itself, and is (in some limited sense) chosen. If it's the former, there's a likelihood that she'll at least learn to have a cardigan handy.
Or, if those decisions are for some reason - youth seems indicated in your post - not her own to make, that one of her parents (if not assiduously rejecting the fact that their girl is turning into a sexual being) will learn to make sure she's adequately clothed.
I worked as a Security Guard for many years, ( one of my small enjoyable ironies was working as a Guard while apparently brain injured and significantly cognitively impaired, until I realized, after a couple of small events, that I may be putting others at risk).
ReplyDeleteThere are 3 rules to being a successful and safe Security Guard
See Nothing, Hear Nothing and do Nothing, just like the Monkeys on Mum's shelf
When all else fails add humour to any situation.
I'd have probably just moved well away from the situation and worried for days in case I should have said something. But who am I and by whose standards do I judge as always where does one draw the line
c) I would grab a sweater from my car.....the benefit of a rolling trash can......and offer it nicely to the girl saying "I was thinking you might like this."....then again. I am a middle aged woman.....nonthreatening, and not likely to be called a pervert.....my teenage sons tell me all the time that being a guy has it's down side.
ReplyDeleteThat could have been me as a kid, and it would certainly have been my own choice. My parents stood little chance of stopping me wearing whatever I wanted, and some of it was wildly inappropriate, and I regretted it once I was out (and - importantly - learnt from the experience).
ReplyDeleteI got very angry when people suggested that my own choices were made by my parents.
Therefore I would say nothing.
I have to second a lot of the comments made, even at the "risk" of questioning Dave's assumptions.
ReplyDeleteAt least from the narrative PRESENTED, it's unclear why this girl OR her parents require a talking to. If there's anyone in that story who seems like they need it, it's the young boys making fun of the girl.
I don't need to rehash the reasons why the girl or her parents may have decided it was okay (or not worth an argument) for her to go out like this, others have already said all that needs to be said on that.
But I will say, Dave, because I think it merits being said, that might it be possible that you were projecting the victimization of this girl purely because of her disability? If you had seen another teenage girl, not in a wheelchair, wearing the same flimsy cami, would you have assumed that her parents (god forbid) had put her in it? Perhaps, as others have said, she was merely trying to put the sexual back into disability. If this is the case, you saying anything (or even offering a coverup) seems to me like it may have shamed her out of trying to claim her sexuality in the future. Needless to say, it sounds like from her blushes, she may approach it differently in the future - but why assume that choice was not hers?
She is a teenager! The comments on here that suggest that it is even remotely alright for a TEENAGE girl of any ability to wear a sheer cami in public is disturbing. I am the mother of three teenage boys. They are good boys, but I am certain that their eyeballs would have been glued to what should not have been seen.
ReplyDeleteYes, I would have spoke up. Perhaps saying something to the father. It is his place after all to address the issue with the boys' treatment of his daughter. And if he is a father, how his daughters dress in public is also his responsibility. Of course I wouldn't present it quite that way. I would have said to him, "Sir, it appears that your daughter is receiving unwanted attention from some young boys in the room." Gesture to the boys. They will catch on that her daddy has been made aware, and hopefully redirect their attention. Then definitely invite him to your lecture. It may be just the thing that prevents both of his daughters from falling victim to sexual predators. The one thing we often ask ourselves at We Care a Lot is "What is the worst that can happen if I do nothing?" This question is generally used in determining when to step in and help someone with a disability with a task, or to process something (would we really be helping? Or inhibiting their growth?) In this case the worst that can happen by doing nothing is that this girl can be sexually abused (and in a sense she is already in the imagination of those boys!)
She is a teenager! The comments on here that suggest that it is even remotely alright for a TEENAGE girl of any ability to wear a sheer cami in public is disturbing. I am the mother of three teenage boys. They are good boys, but I am certain that their eyeballs would have been glued to what should not have been seen.
ReplyDeleteYes, I would have spoke up. Perhaps saying something to the father. It is his place after all to address the issue with the boys' treatment of his daughter. And if he is a father, how his daughters dress in public is also his responsibility. Of course I wouldn't present it quite that way. I would have said to him, "Sir, it appears that your daughter is receiving unwanted attention from some young boys in the room." Gesture to the boys. They will catch on that her daddy has been made aware, and hopefully redirect their attention. Then definitely invite him to your lecture. It may be just the thing that prevents both of his daughters from falling victim to sexual predators. The one thing we often ask ourselves at We Care a Lot is "What is the worst that can happen if I do nothing?" This question is generally used in determining when to step in and help someone with a disability with a task, or to process something (would we really be helping? Or inhibiting their growth?) In this case the worst that can happen by doing nothing is that this girl can be sexually abused (and in a sense she is already in the imagination of those boys!)
I kind of have to agree with Sarah on this one, as much as it pains me to disagree with Dave. Having been around far too many teenage girls for the past few years, I don't see any reason for assuming someone had "put" her in the sort of things MANY teenage girls wear, save the fact that she was in a wheelchair.
ReplyDeleteI'm also forced to wonder if, when I'm out in something less-than-modest and using my chair, people might think my husband has "put" me in the outfit, given the parental role they often assign to spouse-"caregivers." That's just awful.
Having read back through the comments now.
ReplyDeleteI would just like to say that I have 6 children, the youngest now 20.
All have grown up with us just "hanging on for the ride" and hoping for the best, so far so good.
Has anybody ever met a child who listens to their Parents?
When I look around at the young Ladies, and not just those in wheelchairs up town on warm days my only thoughts are "Thank god I am not a Teenage Boy in todays world, I would not know where to put my eyes if I were", and even at my age I don't.
Yes even at the bottom of the world the going up toen virtually top less and of camosole thingees and under outware does seem to be the rage at the moment.
I guess the thing to be thankful for is that our children CAN be freely demonstrative and creative and self expressive without undue risk and sanction from those around them
Maybe just maybe its an overt young peoples reaction to the increasingly "Police State" and increasing compliance requirements stiffling our hard earned Freedoms
Between you and me, however we do wonder if it is a worry that we Old Couple enjoy Project Runway.
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