tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-35743239.post5800946677989505796..comments2024-03-19T07:36:33.915-04:00Comments on Of Battered Aspect: World Down Syndrome Day: Choosing SidesDave Hingsburgerhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/11918601687946534172noreply@blogger.comBlogger63125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-35743239.post-28279339726233240932012-04-11T23:03:01.830-04:002012-04-11T23:03:01.830-04:00I remember being told my unborn son possibly had h...I remember being told my unborn son possibly had had Down's syndrome. The next step was supposed to be amnio, which I declined. I signed up for having a baby- not for having a PERFECT baby. I'm not anti abortion. I think that people who are not ready to have a baby should not be forced to do so,although obviously birth control is the best way to try and do that. But I feel strongly that being a parent is about accepting the child you have, not some perfect dream child. This holds true for me whether the child has a disability or not. You have to love the child you have, not the one you wish you have. Parenting is a crap shoot. <br /><br />It turns out that my son did not have DS- he was born with other, mild disabilities that have taken a lot of appointments, therapies, effort, and time to support his development. People would say "oh you're so great I couldn't handle it" and I would feel like doing violence to them, because, really, what sane person would walk away from their BABY? Will you walk away if they are ill or injured, or become disabled? I hope that most of us wouldn't.<br /><br />I think the 5 minute murder is a powerful metaphor, and one I will not forget soon.woolywomanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14798060848062776281noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-35743239.post-52933096007879623672012-04-03T01:04:37.098-04:002012-04-03T01:04:37.098-04:00I'm a bit behind on this discussion, but I wan...I'm a bit behind on this discussion, but I wanted to comment on the Hitler references. Did you know the US was very much involved in the Hitler eugenics movement? It was that movement that created the building of mental institutions in the 30's and 40's here in the US, and the continued warehousing of people with disabilities well into the 80's. I have three kids with Down syndrome, two adopted from Eastern Europe. The facilities they came from were built in the late 30's to house the "useless eaters" as Hitler, Stalin and Lenin referred to them. During the Holocaust the entire disabled population was murdered LONG before the concentration camps were filled. Sadly, the mentality surrounding those born with disabilities in some parts of the world, particularly those still in the shadow of those three leaders, hasn't changed much. I have watched children in these facilities be treated worse than the stray dogs on the street by caregivers who then go home and lovingly care for their own children. All because they've been taught by generations before them that these are the "useless eaters" with no ability to think, reason, or feel pain.Leah Springhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02326240393099112570noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-35743239.post-82616248078574508662012-04-02T23:38:46.720-04:002012-04-02T23:38:46.720-04:00Note to Colleen, my son and I are very interested ...Note to Colleen, my son and I are very interested in history, etc. and one part of history (to the present) is the topic of eugenics. I did find a website which is dedicated to the research and education of eugenics in Canada. I thought you may wish to look at their information. Perhaps, depending upon where you live, you may be able to attend one of their presentations (they had one that just went by in March).<br /><br />http://eugenicsarchive.ca/<br /><br />Hi Dave and Joe,<br /><br />I've been studying genetics, etc. recently, as my son went for genetic counselling in January at the IWK in Halifax. I wanted to know exactly what "genetic counselling" meant ... and, in my search, I found that genetic counselling was NOT for the purpose of encouraging termination of a pregnancy; (at least in our case) ... it was for the purpose of my son and his future partner to know what to possibly expect if (when) he contributed to a pregnancy.<br /><br />I know for myself, if I knew of significant genetically passed-on health issues ... I would likely have been better prepared ... and my son would likely have had better health care (as so many months/years were spent trying to figure out what his health issues were .... and also that many of his health issues were misdiagnosed. With genetic testing/counselling, at least you can be prepared to realize that you have a certain percent change of your baby having this or that. (As CHD's run in our family, this is important to know).<br /><br />I did get a chance to read the dr's comments before he deleted them, and I didn't read into his comment that he was suggesting that "proper counselling" meant that he was implying termination/abortion would be the best choice.<br /><br />Dr's are responsible for giving their patients ALL of the information. I know one friend of mine, when we were in high school, that her mother had a pregnancy which she chose to end (after very difficult decisions were made). It broke her mother's heart to end her pregnancy, and she cried at the ultrasound images she kept. Her mother was faced with either contniuing the pregnancy or both she and the baby dying. I know my friends mother never got over what she chose to do. I know if I were in the same exact circumstance ... I truly don't know what I would have done either; but, it's not for me to judge others for what they do. We are responsible for ourselves.<br /><br />I know when I had my son, I was basically "on my own", and even then, the obstetrician recommended I have an abortion; I think because he was looking at the situation I was in; but, ultimately, it was up to me, and I didn't want to end my baby's life, just because I was unexpectantly pregnant. Although he was not planned (by me), I chose to have bim, and have loved him ever since.<br /><br />Just my opinion.<br /><br />Thanks,<br />ElizabethAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-35743239.post-51439981360855295472012-04-02T08:12:47.615-04:002012-04-02T08:12:47.615-04:00Dave - thank you, thank you, thank you so much for...Dave - thank you, thank you, thank you so much for getting in touch with me about the person posting as me (not sure how they managed to get my blogger profile pic in the profile, though). I would never, ever apologize to that guy for my comments - the guy needs some counseling himself for being so bold as to perpetuate such ridiculous misinformation. So, having said my bit, THIS is actually me. :-) Thanks again, Dave. You're awesome!!!!Beccahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14963099760885760598noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-35743239.post-37250423168399232602012-04-02T07:39:09.986-04:002012-04-02T07:39:09.986-04:00To 'Becca' above. I can't believe you ...To 'Becca' above. I can't believe you have created a fake webpage and are commenting as 'Becca'. I have been in contact with Becca and know that this simply isn't her. I don't understand the obsession you have with this blog post and the work of Dr. Pushpakaran. I suggest that you have reached as low as you can go and I'd suggest you stop.Dave Hingsburgerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11918601687946534172noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-35743239.post-58372299917176431232012-04-02T00:38:55.106-04:002012-04-02T00:38:55.106-04:00I apologize to respected professor Prem Raj Pushpa...I apologize to respected professor Prem Raj Pushpakaran for my comments which has hurt him to his heart. <br /><br />Dave, please delete my comments made on him.<br /><br />please send my personal apology mail to him<br /><br /><br />Beccabeccahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16205761403226725237noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-35743239.post-20995456786459448302012-04-01T11:56:32.644-04:002012-04-01T11:56:32.644-04:00Only a bit more than a week after Down Syndrome Da...Only a bit more than a week after Down Syndrome Day, I was shocked by an Easter procession in Malta yesterday. Of all the participating children, one was visibly suffering from Down Syndrome. And guess which role they gave him to play? Have a look: http://andreasmoser.wordpress.com/2012/04/01/dingli-easter-procession-children/ - and be prepared to be shocked.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-35743239.post-14212437493615013002012-03-31T22:20:19.040-04:002012-03-31T22:20:19.040-04:00Just wanted to say a big Thank You. For all the go...Just wanted to say a big Thank You. For all the good work you do, for the respect you show to each of us & the way you teach in all you do... Even in the types of comments such as the " wheelchair" having bathroom issues (hah ha). Thank you for being you...Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-35743239.post-4535796221954670372012-03-31T12:33:37.132-04:002012-03-31T12:33:37.132-04:00To Ms James, as you can see he deleted his own com...To Ms James, as you can see he deleted his own comment.Dave Hingsburgerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11918601687946534172noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-35743239.post-34069863119801581662012-03-29T23:51:59.458-04:002012-03-29T23:51:59.458-04:00I'm late to this one, but... First, thanks for...I'm late to this one, but... First, thanks for writing this, Dave and also thanks for letting the comments stand. This discussion is important.<br /><br />That said, to the anonymous above who talked about whether it wouldn't be better to not have a DS child based on how that child would feel. I was struck by your statement that you'd leave your disability in the dust in a second (or words to that effect). And sure... life would be easier without it, but that isn't the choice here. The choice is life or no life, not life with or without a disability. I'm sure many people have looked on my parents with pity because they had a disabled child or maybe - OK, definitely - at me with pity because I have a disability, but it has never occurred to me or my parents to wish I wasn't there. Wish I didn't get juvenile rheumatoid arthritis? Many times, because it's not a fun existence when it flares. Wish I didn't have a disability? Y'know... Aside from the practical aspect of it which can be inconvenient and irritating, I'm fine with it. I like who I am and where I'm at in life and it's a product of everything that's happened in my life, including the disability. If I had the choice to go back and do it all again, I'm pretty sure I'd choose the same road.Lenhttp://theseatedview.blogspot.ca/enoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-35743239.post-6921463499554190042012-03-29T23:31:47.463-04:002012-03-29T23:31:47.463-04:00From,
The Secretary to Prof Prem Pushpakaran
To, ...From,<br />The Secretary to Prof Prem Pushpakaran<br /><br />To, Mr/ Ms Dave<br />blog admistrator<br /><br /><br />It has come to the notice of Professor Prem, that you in your blog,"Rolling Around In My Head" is trying to malign his reputation by posting some trivial comment and make him in an unconfortable place,<br /><br />Do One thing as suugested by the Professor Prem, to delete his comment (the first one on your dirty blog) as he will be free from disrepute. The comments made on him by other bloggers are unpardonable.<br /><br />do delete his comment at once, as he is not interested in the welfare ur downs community from hereon.<br /><br />Erina James<br />secretary to Professor of Bio-Ethics<br />new delhi<br />Indiaerina james, secretaryhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12282102038063429583noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-35743239.post-88239275014069414722012-03-28T19:40:18.769-04:002012-03-28T19:40:18.769-04:00I "get it"' but at the same time I h...I "get it"' but at the same time I have to wonder why people notice other's differences rather than strengths. We are all different than one another and that is a good thing. We all have strengths and weakness and that is good as well. If you really think about it, the only place that label of Down Syndrome or any other name for a developmental disability is an advantage is for funding. I have heard Support Workers call those they are supporting "tools", I have also seen support workers that are embarrassed to be seen with the people they are supporting. When are we all considered just people, referred to by our first name or Mr., Miss, Mrs. Or Ms?<br />The only people I personally have a problem with is what I call "Stupid People" ...my definition of a Stupid Person is one that knows better, but plays stupid or knows better but will not stand for what they know is wrong. I still believe we have a long way to go to educate the world to treat people as people and not a label of a disability.<br />Here's to just being people!<br />SusanChlomarhttp://www.abilitycenteredconsulting.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-35743239.post-66078820341781991862012-03-28T06:55:55.180-04:002012-03-28T06:55:55.180-04:00Dave, the 1st comments are SPAM or very similar. H...Dave, the 1st comments are SPAM or very similar. Hate speech does not belong here. Delete them.Bettynoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-35743239.post-16610780503518942272012-03-27T22:56:16.832-04:002012-03-27T22:56:16.832-04:00This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-35743239.post-7033994817490890162012-03-27T22:52:06.091-04:002012-03-27T22:52:06.091-04:00This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-35743239.post-76746357993735157772012-03-27T22:47:09.043-04:002012-03-27T22:47:09.043-04:00This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-35743239.post-87544698584034846522012-03-26T22:07:51.487-04:002012-03-26T22:07:51.487-04:00This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.prof altaf husseinnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-35743239.post-68211625768886740242012-03-25T18:36:46.803-04:002012-03-25T18:36:46.803-04:00Hey - it's not about you - and how you have ab...Hey - it's not about you - and how you have abilities and talents to cope. It's not about your capacity for great love - it is about the person with the disability. You may be able to "manage" - but we have been managed enough.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-35743239.post-27926997459656495792012-03-23T20:08:27.540-04:002012-03-23T20:08:27.540-04:00Anonymous said: "The doctor's post may be...Anonymous said: <i>"The doctor's post may be coming from a different angle - but is valid. I'm sure there isn't a parent in the world that wishes they had a baby with difficulties."</i><br /><br />There is: me and my partner. We want to have disabled children. Why? Because as a lesbian couple, adoption is one of the ways we can have children and we would rather adopt a "hard to place" child, one who really needs us.<br /><br />Most healthy babies in the adoption system will find good homes, but older children, or disabled children are less likely to find a permanent home, because everyone wants healthy babies. So, we want older children and children with disabilities, because they deserve a good home too, and we can provide one. <br /><br />If my future child is blind, I already know Braille and will be able to help them with reading and pre-reading. If my future child is deaf, I already know sign language, and can communicate with them from day 1. If my future child has Downs, they will learn some things more slowly, or differently than other children, and they will do things when they are ready to do them, and we will love them for who they are and encourage them to do the best they can, whatever that is.<br /><br />I do not hope I will have an able-bodied child. I just hope I will have children. Whatever they look like, whether they learn to speak with their mouths or their hands, whether they are potty trained at 2 or at 12 or need to use adult diapers, none of this matters to me. <br /><br />If my child did end up being able bodied, I would love them all the same, of course.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-35743239.post-6009098774355558672012-03-23T13:01:15.210-04:002012-03-23T13:01:15.210-04:00Last night I was sitting and reading the comments ...Last night I was sitting and reading the comments section while watching my 3 year old who has Down syndrome splash and play in the bathtub with her 5 year old sister while my 37 week in-utero baby happily kicked at me. It turned my stomach and made me want to lock the outside doors and keep all three of them with me protected forever. Then I came back just now in the light of the day and saw Dave's response and felt like I could breathe again- and she could go outside and safely play with her sister. <br /><br />I'm just going to come pull up a chair and sit by you Dave while I watch her. ((hugs)) Thank you for the perspective- as always. Not only could I breathe again but I can go back to this- to quote you in what might be my favorite quote to date:<br /><br />"Sometimes love is a political act.<br /><br />Sometimes family is an act of rebellion.<br /><br />Sometimes hearts do just what they are supposed to do."<br /><br />Our little act of rebellion is due in just two weeks. I may be old- but I have love and a family. Our hearts are so very blessed.Colehttp://www.thetaooftulips.wordpress.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-35743239.post-45143725139678233682012-03-23T10:32:54.766-04:002012-03-23T10:32:54.766-04:00Dear Dave:
I absolutely agree. People need to kno...Dear Dave:<br /><br />I absolutely agree. People need to know this history but we are not taught it. We are not as far from doing it again as many people like to think. Keep publishing your very thought provoking blog, Dave!<br /><br />ColleenColleennoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-35743239.post-31168532956118097682012-03-23T09:27:14.895-04:002012-03-23T09:27:14.895-04:00Colleen,
The book 'Our Own Master Race' l...Colleen,<br /><br />The book 'Our Own Master Race' looks at the practice of eugenics in Canada with particular emphasis on disability. What I read there about Canada's connection to the extermination of people with disabilities in Germany shocked me. What they don't teach us is what we need to learn.Dave Hingsburgernoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-35743239.post-63628178685903363392012-03-23T08:05:48.620-04:002012-03-23T08:05:48.620-04:00Dear Dave:
I believe I made the first reference t...Dear Dave:<br /><br />I believe I made the first reference to Nazis in this stream of responses and I stand by what I said. If anyone thinks that what happened in Nazi Germany happened in isolation or just all of a sudden during the war - think again. Eugenics programs and policies were around the world for decades before people were exterminated in Nazi Germany. Eugenics started in Great Britain and was supported by many high profile people in North America and around the world. In Canada we continued to sterilize people without their consent for 25 years after forced sterilization was declared a crime against humanity at Nuremburg - and nobody batted an eyelash.<br /><br />I too dislike frivolous references to Nazis and Hitler. My reference is not frivolous. It is serious. If we do not know this history and if we are not vigilant we are in grave danger of doing it again. Eugenics has not just gone away - it has morphed into "proper counseling". <br /><br />I do not want to live in a world where we eliminate anyone. I want to live in a world where we welcome everyone, celebrate everyone - just the way they are, the whole package.<br /><br />ColleenColleennoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-35743239.post-86036234903246842872012-03-23T04:25:43.123-04:002012-03-23T04:25:43.123-04:00Folks,
I've followed these comments really cl...Folks,<br /><br />I've followed these comments really closely and have gone through so many differing emotions while reading them. What impresses me though is that, when people disagree, they do so using words to debate not words to demean. I've seen these kind of discussions go so nasty so quickly elsewhere. The respectful, though heated, disagreement is something I'm thankful for.<br /><br />AS for the Hitler reference, I was glad to see Eric's point and I think he said what he said better than I could say it right now. I remember when the play, 'Bent,' openned in Toronto and mainstream critics howled that the gay community was diluting the experience of millions by claiming to have something to say about the Holocaust. What I noticed was that none of those who made these statements were Jewish. I wonder if there are those who want to 'corral' those ideologies to history as a way of making them irrelevant. Like Janet, and I have written about it before, I don't like the word 'Nazi' used in a humourous way, but mentioning the Holocaust or Hitler in an appropriate context shouldn't be forbidden. I also don't think that Janet, and she may want to correct me here, was calling anyone else here a 'Nazi'. I thought she was simply making the point that opinions and ideas can become action and I thought that point was well made.<br /><br />Anyways I'm in danger of writing another whole post here, so let me end again by thanking you all for discussing more than yelling.Dave Hingsburgerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11918601687946534172noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-35743239.post-14160836789911376972012-03-22T20:01:32.906-04:002012-03-22T20:01:32.906-04:00anon said: "if you follow the rules of the in...anon said: "if you follow the rules of the internet as soon as you mention the Nazi's or Hitler you've automatically lost the debate"<br /><br />I have this to say: first read <a href="http://wiki.killfile.org/projects/usenet/faqs/godwin/" rel="nofollow">the Godwin's law FAQ</a>. (Though I am, of course, the sort who thinks "rules of the internet" are a bullshit notion in and of themselves. Godwin's law in and of itself, however, is not a rule to guide behavior or argumentation.)<br /><br />As well: As Godwin's Law of Nazi Analogies becomes more famous the probability of misinterpretation and misapplication of the law approaches 1. All it says is the probability of an analogy approaches 1. It does not say such comparisons are automatically fallacious.<br /><br />Also note that anon says nothing about the Singer reference. It seems that just us soon as they see Nazi analogies they shut down to any other arguments. Flawed reasoning in one part of a given writing doesn't automatically invalidate good reasoning in another part, providing that the latter does not depend on the former. It's a fallacy of relevance. As an example: while Singer's flawed reasoning with regards to disability and quality of life gives reason to look more critically at the argumentation in all his work, it doesn't necessarily mean <i>Animal Liberation</i> is automatically to be disregarded.<br /><br />somebody else put it much better than I could: "[the idea that whoever makes the first Nazi comparison loses the argument] is fucking ridiculous and ahistorical. I mean, I get that comparisons to Nazism and the holocaust are often used in really inaccurate, appropriative, sneaky ways. but I've been accused of breaking Godwin's law for bringing up <i>actual links to currently active neo-Nazi groups</i>. Nazism had a historical context, its impact is ongoing, and there are many people today who hold explicitly Nazi beliefs. There is nothing to be gained by exempting it from any kind of analysis or comparison to other events. It doesn't help us to crystallise it as an example of the most incommensurable evil, qualitatively beyond any other genocide or atrocity. it's not, ok? that's the kind of thinking that stops us from understanding it and preventing future atrocities. it's also the kind of thinking that allows the unscrupulous to use it as an unanswerable slur. we need more critical analysis of the ongoing impact of Nazism and the Holocaust, not less."<br /><br />Going from all of this, careful mentioning of Nazi ideology and its origins in American/British-created eugenicist and social Darwinist ideologies, and how much of the base ideas in this ideology with regards to disabilities are still in place, is not Godwin's law. Personally I'd be more prone to reference the earlier American & British eugenicists, because they're more obscure (and I believe it would be better if people were more informed on the subject, and that the Nazis essentially just implemented ideas created in other countries) and...well, nobody's going to pull out this obnoxious crap on me if I do that instead. But it doesn't make such comparisons invalid. At worst, I would be willing to accept comparisons in this thread as blunt.<br /><br />Someone up-thread said something about how sometimes, resisting certain opinions is a good thing. I unequivocally agree with that statement.<br /><br />Finished now, and apologies for the word vomit. Dave, thank you for the post.Erichttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13049791290350177559noreply@blogger.com